Going On Cranky Geeks To Discuss Whether Or Not “Google Must Die” With John Dvorak

December 7, 2008

A few weeks ago, John Dvorak wrote an article on pcmag.com titled Why Google Must Die. It’s all about how SEO is destroying the internet, puppies, and rainbows. It’s SEO is the Worst Thing Ever Invented all over again.

Actually, Dvorak takes a bit of a different spin than the typical “SEO helps the terrorists win” perspective. He asserts that businesses need SEO because Google sucks so much and can’t figure out what relevant results are for searchers unless site owners give them a little help. Danny Sullivan and others took him to task on Sphinn, breaking down his points one by one.

Watch us battle it out on Cranky Geeks

I’ll be on Dvorak’s show Cranky Geeks this week to fight it out, er, I mean discuss it with him in a professional manner.  I had a great time last time I was on the show, and I’m looking forward to another chance to be geeky yet cranky. You can tune in live Wednesday, December 10th at 12:30 or download the podcast later from the site or from Tivo.

Dvorak is right. Sorta.

I don’t think Dvorak is entirely off the mark, although I do think he’s a bit misguided. He’s right that search engines could do a better job, and in their defense, they’ve got lots of people working on it, all the time. They’re working at improving crawling technologies such as Flash, and they’re always in an arms race with spammers. But they’re not perfect, and part of SEO is to make up for some of the shortcomings that search engines have.

The major search engines are at their cores, text-based, so they do best at indexing and ranking text-based content. Because they aren’t better at other forms of media, sites who care about being found by searchers have to ensure they are building search-friendly sites.

It’s not Google’s responsibility to make sure your customers can find you

It is Google’s responsibility to keep building a better product, and to that end, they and other search engines will undoubtedly continue to work at improving how they handle non-text content, how they deal with spam, and how they calculate relevance.

But it’s the responsibility of every business to make  their sites search engine-friendly to improve their businesses.

Dvorak says:

it [SEO] centers around the idea that Google sucks so much that companies think they need to use SEO to get the results they deserve.

In my opinion, SEO centers around the idea that as a business, it’s important to understand the space you’re operating in. If you open a store, you may want to scout out real estate options. Should you open it at the mall or at the end of a lonely dirt road? You might have signs made, put a display in your window, and put locks on the doors so you can protect your merchandise when you’re closed. If you’re going to operate a business online, the same rules apply. You can’t expect Google to do all the work of running your business for you.

From a technical perspective, you want to make sure your site is secure, that the database communicates with the application correctly, and that visitors can pull it up on Internet Explorer or Firefox, Windows or Mac. You also want to make sure it can be crawled and indexed effectively. (This technical side of SEO is what the upcoming O’Reilly Found conference I’m cochairing is all about.)

From a marketing perspective, you want to make sure that you’re using the language of your customer and have what your customers are looking for. That just makes good business sense.

So what about Dvorak’s specific claims?

Inability to identify a home site: Dvorak says search engines are “laughably” poor at returning home pages for navigational searches. He uses [art jenkins] as his example. As Danny points out on Sphinn, artjenkins.com is a parked site, so it probably isn’t the best result for that query. As this is his only example, I’m not sure what more to say about this. I know that I don’t want the similarly parked vanessafox.com to be the first result for a search of my name.

I’ve rarely come across this problem as a searcher, although I have seen it when sites completely block search engines or create sites entirely in Flash with no title tag, description, or text, so that it’s impossible for a search engine to know what the site’s about. Maybe search engines should somehow know without any clues like a name on the page, and certainly they use all the clues they can get, but there’s only so much you can do with a cryptic domain name and a title tag that says “welcome”.

Too much commerce: I actually find this to be an interesting accusation, because I think Google works very hard to provide non-commercial results for queries that don’t have obvious commercial intent. In fact, that’s caused many people to complain the other direction and say that Google includes too many Wikipedia-type research sites in its results. And based on my experience working in Google search, I can say that his assertion that “there seems to be an underlying belief, especially at Google, that the only reason you go online is to buy something” is definitely not the case.

He then uses this example: “Ask Google to find you a site that honestly compares cell-phone plans and tells you which is best. Try it! All you get are thousands of sites with fake comparisons promoting something they are selling.” In that case, the searcher is looking to buy something. They want a cell phone plan. And in this case, there’s an additional complication. How many sites are out there that provide information like cell phone plan comparisons that aren’t selling something?

Sites like consumerreports.corg password-protect much of this information because they too are looking to sell something — their content — and content behind a login isn’t going to show up in Google. (And with good reason. I imagine Dvorak would be just as upset to get search results for something that he couldn’t actually access without paying for.)

Google can only return results from sites that exist. It can’t created the magic fairy land that Dvorak dreams about where non-commercial sites provide endless comparison information simply for the joy of it. That said the query [what's the best cell phone plan] does return a lot of non-commercial results in the top ten, including askville.amazon.com, ask.metafilter.com, reviews.cnet.com, and answers.yahoo.com.

He then says:

What’s particularly bad about this is that the few honest sites trying to present information without SEO and all the trickery needed to get attention are put out of business; nobody ever finds those sites.

But as he noted in the opening of his article, SEO and trickery are two different things. And that’s like saying what’s particularly bad about capitalism is that companies who are good at marketing and product strategy and audience analysis and hiring and managing people succeed and the ones that are bad at it go out of business.

Parked sites ranking highly: This one is also perplexing. I just don’t see that many parked sites in my results. Sure some spam gets through, but it’s almost always temporary. Google and the other search engines have whole teams devoted entirely to fighting spam. It’s not as though they don’t know spam is an issue. To ask “How does page ranking, if it works, ever manage to give these bogus sites a high number?” just shows naivitee about how search engines work. Spammers try to find loopholes; engineers work to close them. There’s big money in spam so spammers do all kinds of clever things that Dvorak probably has never thought of to make those non-content sites appear, for a time, to be relevant.

Unrepeatable search results: He claims that you can never find these twice because the search results are always vastly different. I never find this to be the case. Danny suggests in the Sphinn thread that he may just not remember the exact search he was doing.

Suggestions for improvement?

He says, “the basis for Google page-ranking is to equate popularity with quality”. I know a lot of people have this view, but PageRank is one of only hundreds of signals that Google uses today. And they’re always experimenting with how to tweak those signals and add new ones to produce the best results possible. He suggests “rethinking the basic organization of the web itself” except that Google doesn’t have any control over how the web is organized. It just does the best it can with what it has to work with.

He concludes the article by saying “Hopefully, someone will conceptualize something new that works better than what we have today. The situation is just deteriorating too fast.” Really? I just don’t hear a lot of people talking about how much Google search results suck. Do you?

He also advocates old-school community-based directories:

Yahoo! had a good idea when its search engine was actually a directory with segments “owned” by communities of experts.”

Well, he could try Mahalo. Although their expert-owned cell phone plans page could use a little work.

Google and the other major search engines are working all the time to improve results they provide. They have lots of smart people, are crunching lots of data, and doing all kinds of experiments. And while I mentioned earlier that their main aim is to make their search results as relevant as possible, they do, of course, reach out to site owners, and make information about search-friendliness available to everyone, not just SEOs.

Dvorak seems irritated that SEO is “all anyone working with web sites ever talks about nowadays”, and I think that’s only going to increase as SEO become mainstream fundamental aspects of development and marketing. We’re a searching culture, so businesses need to know how to get in front of searchers. That’s unlikely to change anytime soon.

11 Comments

Give Him hell Vanessa :-)

These are some of the most ridiculously false accusations I have ever heard (as you aptly point out) - this guy is a lunatic.

First of all, let’s be clear that, not so long ago, idiots like this would not have had the luxury of complaining about matters like this. Google REVOLUTIONIZED the internet, and the only reason people like him can dream about their Utopian internet universes is because Google has brought us to this point.

Go back in time just a few years ago and think about what a searcher would have found for some of these searches on Yahoo, MSN, Ask, Dogpile… need I go on?

Parked sites ranked highly? Please! I can honestly say in my ENTIRE LIFE, I have never stumbled upon a parked site via a Google search, in lieu of something else I was looking for.

The bias towards commerce sites? Please!!!! Google is WELL known for its information bias. Like you so correctly point out, Google can’t help it if the only people writing about the “[insert "best" product here] are trying to make money off the sale of that product.

Perhaps Mr. Altruism over there should devote his life to creating top quality informational sites for some of these commercial topics for the sole purpose of increasing the quality of Google search results.

Utterly absurd. Google is the best thing to happen to the world since blow jobs. Yes, SEO has been wildly out of control in the last decade - the internet is basically the new “Wild West” of the modern era. But Google is the new sheriff in town, and they have been incredibly effective at weeding out spam tactics - more so every year.

Yes, there could be better than Google - and most likely, they will be beaten by someone better - themselves, next year. And the year after that.

This guy is nothing more than the typical anarchist type who can do nothing other than try to tear down a good system without proposing a viable alternative. I hate people like that.

Sorry for the long post, but it was therapeutic.

well said phill

The resaon that he couldn’t find a decent cell phone site is that the USA has a third world mobile infrastruture :-)

The lovely Vanessa and her defenders have no defense for Google and SEO other than what Churchill said about democracy: “It’s the worst of all possible systems … but there are none better.”

Never encountered unrepeatable searches? Parked sites at the top of a search result? And you claim to be a tech journalist — or whatever it is you call yourself? Come on. You must really be in a “fairyland”.

“[A]nd in their defense, they’ve got lots of people working on it, all the time” — Awwww, isn’t that sweet. They’ve got people working on it. Yet at the same time they position themselves in the public mind as the center of gravity on the internet, the “observer” that essentially gives the internet its form by presenting it in a navigable form to web users. So on one hand, in the concrete and tangible realm, they make the websurfing experience suffer by providing crappy search results (note: ‘better than the others’ still doesn’t mean good). On the other hand *they try real hard* and have all sorts of institutional mechanisms in place to poorly combat the noise threatening to overwhelm the signal.

It’s no secret that with Google Desktop, the advent of cloud computing, and so on, Google is trying to be more than just a friendly, neutral search engine. It’s trying to take the point of interface away from the OS to Internet-as-Google/Google-as-Internet. Any discussion of its relative success providing search results a la SEO and other methods has to occur in this light. People like Vanessa, and Phil the crackpot above, seem surprisingly like a bunch of reactionaries with their “Heck of a job, Brownie” Google-friendly views.

Bottom line is this:

SEO isn’t an exercise in helping the search engines not suck. SEO is:
-understanding we’re in a searching culture and if you can’t be found in search, then you don’t exist to a large percentage of your potential audience.
-businesses who operate online need to understand how to create search-friendly web sites the same way they need to understand security if they process credit cards.

Yes, search engines aren’t perfect and I’m not an apologist for them. But I’m not saying “heck of a job, Brownie.” I’m saying that the things you are calling them out for is old news. They know about these issues and their smartest PhDs are working on them. I talk to startup search engines every day. They all say Google sucks. They all say they can do better. But it turns out the building a relevant, useful search engine isn’t as easy as it looks.

Until we have a better system, businesses and anyone else who wants to attract an audience online needs to understand how to integrate SEO into their businesses or they will never enjoy the level of success that they otherwise could.

Integrating SEO. Cost of doing business on the web. BFD.

I can remember the days before anybody could… google. As you can see in my pseud, I know what it’s like to work in a revolutionary corporation whose product is so incredible, unique and universe dominant that it became a verb. Now what?

I think of Google as the first broadcast network of the web. It doesn’t change the fact that there are still people on the planet that do things the old way, and I think anyone who thinks about it seriously knows that the old way still works. If ‘the only way your business can reach people’ is through Google, then you basically don’t have a real business. Google is the Yenta for ugly businesses and the great unwashed public. Other people who have a clue about something know where to look. Or is del.icio.us now completely obsolete because it’s too difficult to use?

The problem here is what people like me understand. I get paid to build very secure financial reporting systems - the kind of stuff that almost never goes public and when it does, people get sued, sometimes. Generic search is never going to lead to wisdom, it’s returning facts, maybe even knowledge but it’s angling towards data. GIGO.

Page Rank is not wrong. It’s what the broad, general, business angling great unwashed public market wants, and you get what you pay for.

Vanessa Fox mentions on Cranky Geeks that she has a blog post that talks about how she manages to get 8 (of the top 10) google search results to be RELEVANT.

Anyone know what title of that blog post is? I can’t seem to find it.

Thanks!

Vanessa,

First of all, Phil’s comment on slandering a professional. That would be removed if I were moderating this site.

My take on SEO:

As you mentioned,
“It’s not Google’s responsibility to make sure your customers can find you”

I would have agreed if Google were Alexa 560 site, with half a million visitors daily. But it’s not. Google is so popular that too many people use it for their means. So, it is naturally their responsibility partially to rank useful resources high. In that end, giving too much importance to SEO and links only causes spammers to rise high in search results. But as you say, Google just fights from their end to improve the web.

I would have loved it if it had been a world without SEO. Or at least, google shouldn’t popularize the exact way they are ranking sites. That will at least cause confusion in spammers.

Secondly, I have been seeing lot more spam in Google search results for a few days. I believe they should really do something about it. I have some recommendations you people may wish to check out here: http://cutewriting.blogspot.com/2008/11/google-web-spam-seo-ranking.html

About slandering comments: Vanessa, please delete them.

I’me sure some of the niave stright from grad school people in google think that the google os is a runner but as Ted Dziuba has pointed out this is crap.

http://teddziuba.com/2008/09/a-web-os-are-you-dense.html

Btw I think it was bit unfair to have all 3 of you ganging up on Vanessa

Hi Vanessa, I went searching for your old blog and was directed here. Quite a change. :)

Slander? No way. I think you mean libel, right? Besides, no libel that I can see since it has to be something written that is totally false. I don’t see anything written like that.

I see this thread as a good discussion with good points on both sides.

[...] really pissed me off was a Vannessa Fox article about some punk ass ragging on the industry (yes, I realize I’m way fucking behind if I just read this). Sure, we all know who the number [...]

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